I am really honoured by the
seriousness with which Manushi friends have responded to the debate on
legalization of prostitution. You have raised important issues for which I do
not have readymade answers. I too am grappling with this issue and therefore
welcome your critiques and inputs. My main concern is that the ground realities
in each society be taken into account while we propose solutions. What works in
Sweden may not be practical in India. I hope this debate will enable us to work
towards a more rational, humane and practical approach and legislation on this
issue. Madhu Kishwar
Kamal Jaswal
Very well argued. I am not
sure though of the validity of the argument against legalization, which is a
prerequisite of the regulation of any profession.
Inder Malhotra
Dear Madhu: I read it in the
IE yesterday with great interest. Thanks also for sending me the
recommendations of your seminar.
Sankrant Sanu
Dear Madhu,
Great to see you write on
this issue. We had discussed this in person once, but I do not really get the
differentiation you are trying to make between decriminalization and
legalization-how can something be decriminalized without being
legalized?-either the it violates the law or it does not. To legalize does not
mean that it automatically becomes socially respectable either-the respect we
accord to different professions varies among all the activities that are
perfectly legal even now. However, rather than get into a dispute over terms,
it may be easier to find common ground on specific issues on policies.
Some women (and men) may
choose to sell their bodies for money and others men (and women) may choose to
buy this. At some level this is a transaction between consenting adults, one
that has existed in various forms in different societies. If we agree that
criminalizing this transaction is neither useful nor effective, then we can
focus on the other issues that this brings up:
1. Are
the parties involved "consenting"? Rather than become a moral police,
which is a dubious idea at best when used for the Indian police force, law
enforcement can focus their energy on cases of coercion and trafficking and on
those below the age of consent. In the absence of this, the legitimate parts of
the trade just become an additional bribery stream for the police force.
Allowing consensual sex transactions will help the protection and emancipation
of women who are being coerced against their will as well as provide recourse
to women who are practicing willingly where they are currently at the mercy of
the criminal mafia for enforcement of their rights, including the right to get
paid for their work and for medical and legal services.
2. How
should the marketing and availability of the services be regulated? Just like
advertising for cigarette smoking or alcohol is regulated, it would make sense
to heavily regulate the marketing of these services.
3. How
should establishments that ply this trade be regulated? Here we are going
beyond consenting adults to a commercial setup where many such sex-workers may
be employed. Other than the regulation on marketing and solicitation, as in
(2), there should be regulations on where they may open "parlors" and
what kind of medical services and screening must be provided to the workers.
Perhaps we can also propose that the establishments that employ these women be
women-owned and managed; similarly for their male counterparts.
4. Make
it illegal for foreigners to avail of these services. This may seem bizarre,
but given that prostitution is legal only in certain countries, these place end
up being a magnet for sex-tourists. Keeping it illegal for foreigners would
keep a lid on the influx of sex-tourism.
The question whether this
trade demeans men or women more is not something that has any objective answer.
Whether trading money for sex is more or less moral than, say, trading money
for other menial work on the one hand, or say, religious conversion, on
the other, can be debate for the philosophers. (Is it more morally
culpable to sell one's soul, than to sell one's body?) In the meantime it is
better to deal with reality, and human nature, as it exists.
Shamita Das Dasgupta
Madhu,
Thanks for an interesting
article. I have made very similar arguments in my book with Indrani Sinha. It
is about mothers who are involved in the sex trade. May I draw your attention
to it?
Indrani Sinha & Shamita
Das Dasgupta. (2009). Mothers for sale: Women in Kolkata's sex trade. Kolkata:
DasGupta Alliance (boiwala.dasgu...@gmail.com).
I hope you will get a chance
to read it and let me know what you think of it.
Answer by Madhu Kishwar
Dear All,
Many thanks for your
feedback and critique of my article on legalizing prostitution. I agree that my
attempt to differentiate between decriminalization and legalization is
confusing and may even seem fuzzy. But I am not convinced that brothels of the
kind one sees in Bangkok or Amsterdam are the best way to deal with this
problem. I am not the kind who wants to meddle in matters of consensual sex for
money if the transaction takes place under conditions of free choica. The real
issue is that the vast majority of women are trapped into the flesh trade under
the most inhuman circumstances. Even in countries where sex trade is legalized,
the entire trade is dominated by criminal mafias. In such countries, there is
enormous amount of trafficking of women across national boundaries--with most
women brought in from poorer countries on false pretexts. I would hate to live
in a world where men dont even feel guilty about buying the services of such
victims. Sex is not just a biological urge or a mechanical act --it is also a
sacred trust between two human beings. Even at the risk of sounding prudish, I
have no hesitation in saying that I m unable to accept it as just another
transaction--like selling your services as a taxi driver. Those who think it
should be treated at par with any other transaction--should answer the
question: Would they be as cool about it if their daughter or sister took to
this profession? Would you be able to accept her 'choice" openly and
introduce her to your friends and colleagues as a sex worker with as much ease
as you do when introducing a member of your family as a school teacher or
doctor?
Alka Kurian
Dear
Madhu,
I
am sorry I have only just joined the thread of the conversation and hope that I
am not repeating what has already been discussed. What I would say is this:
Parents
have very high career aspirations for their children and are often disappointed
by the choices that their children make. My mother, for example, told me in
front of a female doctor how she was disappointed that her daughter had chosen
to be a university professor rather than a doctor. So in her eyes, I had
failed.
The
key is to figure out the extent to which parents should determine what their
daughters / sisters choose for their career. What if tomorrow I decide that I
am a lesbian / bisexual after all (I am not) - will I worry about my parent's
disappointment? In Iran I can be publicly executed for this. Also, why blame
the children for making these choices. And choice is the wrong word here as
they are not free agents if freedom is what we are talking about. Aren't they
products of their environment? I am sure even though some women may choose to
prostitute their bodies, it must have been a difficult decision for them. We
need to find out who failed them, how, and where. What role did parents play in
raising them? What was their moral framework? Did they not teach their
daughters the right from wrong (if we are dividing the world in these black and
white categories). Did they not lay emphasis on education? We have also heard
about parents who sell their daughters to men from the middle east to pay off
debts etc. What role did the society play? Why did it lose its civic responsibilities?
I
think by referring to prostitution as a shameful profession, we are once again
blaming sex workers rather than ask difficult questions.
K.V.
Bapa Rao
Some
of the abortion debate in the US might provide parallel clues on the
matter of decriminalization / legalization. Even those who favour criminalizing
abortion don't (usually) talk about penalties for the woman who undergoes the
procedure; their focus is more on the providers. Technically abortion is legal
in the US, but there is a steady stream of limiting laws being passed that
regulate the procedure without necessarily making it criminal.
Also
instructive is the debate about homosexuality vs. pedophilia in India. The two
are often confused, but one can be made legal or decriminalized without
sanctioning the other.
I
think we need to be creative about situating the prostitution problem in the
gray area between "decriminalized" and "not legalized".
Perhaps in communicating the issue, more emphasis can be given to the
perversity of the way in which criminalization of prostitution is enforced in
India--exploitation, harassment by police etc. The crux of the matter is, we
want crimes like kidnapping, imprisonment, exploitation etc. in the context of
prostitution punished, but not the prostitute herself / himself. What to do
with the customer is another matter. I don't think it is correct to argue that,
kidnapping etc. can only be prosecuted in the context of a fully legalized
activity (mafia boss Al Capone was prosecuted and convicted for tax
evasion--not paying taxes on his criminally received income, but he was never
prosecuted for the criminal activity itself, clearly it didn't mean that the
crimes were not crimes or they were condoned; for some good reason (inability
to find witnesses etc.) it was decided to not prosecute those crimes.).
The
easing of pressure of the law on prostitutes themselves can be a matter of
policy, or it can be written into law carefully incorporating these kinds of
nuances. Question is, does it make more sense to push for a policy change (is
that reliable?) or is a change law the only course to pursue?
By
the way, I hope it won't be considered contempt of court, but I thought the
court's remark on legalizing prostitution was facile, there seem to be a spate
of such remarks from the apex court these days.
regards,
K.V.
Bapa Rao to Alka Kurian
Hi
Alka, my guess is that the proportion of women who freely choose to become
prostitutes is relatively low in India. So, it is probably ok to see the
prostitute generally as a victim, lacking in autonomy, at least at the point of
entering the profession. So, then, the focus could be placed on how to prevent
the victims from being victimized even further by the legal system as is
happening now. I feel that some such framing would have the maximum appeal,
without getting into moral judgments about the act of prostitution or
philosophical debate about free choice etc. about which there can be a lot of
view points, few of them relevant to the reality of a girl sold into
prostitution, who needs urgent relief as a first step.
Siddhartha
Shome
Maybe
a practical way to "decriminalize but not legalize" is to do
something along the lines of what Sweden has done. In Sweden it is a crime to
pay for sex, but it is not a crime to sell sex. The idea is that the
prostitute, who is often a victim in this situation, should not be further
victimized by the law. But since buying sex is illegal, the prostitution
business itself is illegal.
This
law has received mixed reviews. See this, for example
Veena
Oldenburg
As
Oliver Goldsmith said: That *virtue* which requires to be *ever guarded*is
scarcely *worth the sentinel*. I have worked and visited tawa'ifs in Lucknow
and published a scholarly piece on them. It certainly speaks of the respect
that society, and the court--for they were courtesans--received from the public
at large. This was true of Hindu and Muslim courts. Prostitution really
came into our cities via the colonial government--who needed every cantonment,
there were 110 of these purpose-built spaces in the major cities of colonial
India. (vide, my *Afternoons at the Kotah* in Shaam e Avadh: Writings on
Lucknow, Penguin, 2007). A prostitute was the debased version of the tawa'if,
with none of her control over her own body, her earnings and her property. They
were also the only educated women who weiled influence in the court. The kothas
were owned and run by women--not mafia dons and the pimps we see today,
abducting and brutalizing women.
I
think the high class call girl is a return to some of the older traditions of
this social institution. (*Laga Chunari Mein Daag* has Bollywooed's fairly
enlightened take on this that leaves us in utter sympathy and even
identification with the woman who has had to prostitute herself. Films like
Benazir and Pakeezah are also respectful of their prostitute/singer/dancer
women. I think the root cause of not respecting a prostitute goes along with
men and even not respecting women. Women have been so socially and legally
constructed to be the dependents of men that the respect for a woman trying to
make her own way in life without becoming the wife or रखैल of one man. I know this is changing
in very small ways in cities, but the the prejudice against single women is
enormous. Given the mainly sexual nature of a prostitutes livelihood--prudish
and prurient societies have no place for such women. For this reason it is
imperative to legalize the trade--which will allow prostitutes to seek justice
in law courts and from exploitation from pimps and gun-toting
politicians/clients. I think a couple of very shabby and unhygienic kothas in
Lucknow might bloom again. De-criminalization is only a half-hearted gesture.
Hiranmayi
Bhatt
Hello
Madhuji and all,
Madhuji,
as always I've enjoyed reading and understanding your perspective. I clearly
see why you have taken the views you've shared.
I
also want to add that in western European nations where prostitution is legal,
most of the women prostituting themselves are from poorer eastern European
nations or women of color who've been trafficked or immigrated into the country
in hopes of having a better life. If these nations saw prostitution as a truly
‘respectable choice’ than how come the profession has been reserved only for
the most oppressed women within these countries? Clearly western European
nations (Sweden and Amsterdam specifically) lack a class and race analysis of
their laws, of the men who travel to their nations specifically for sex, and of
the women in the sex trade. Legalizing the profession had nothing to do with
'respectability' and supporting women's sexual 'choices.' Rather it was done
for capitalistic reasons (to amp up tourism and increase taxes of sorts) and to
show the rest of the world that these nations are more ‘liberated’ than other
places. What great things has legalizing prostitution done for the women? White
western countries are very good at displaying a liberal message without truly
following it, as we already know, and this is just one more tactic. I don't
understand why Indian and other feminists, or for that matter other nations,
look up to these European countries on most things but especially on the topic
of prostitution when their analysis is weak and the motivation has an awful
hidden agenda.
Questions
for Sankrant Sanu: In your response you said, “Perhaps we can also propose that
the establishments that employ these women be women-owned and managed" and
"Make it illegal for foreigners to avail of these services."
1.)
What difference would it make to have ‘prostitution establishments’ as
woman-owned and run businesses? Is this suggestion made to ensure that only
women will profit from the profession? Why open up this specific profession to
just women when there is little effort to include women in professions from
which we are currently being excluded? Is the underlying assumption here that
women will be more humane than men at running the show because women are
inherently more humane? I think it would place an unnecessary expectation on
women to humanize an inhumane profession (an impossible task). There are many
brothels that are owned and operated by women where you can see the same
atrocities as in those run by men. Even in other areas of life we see women
committing similar abuses onto women that men commit. Do we want to legally
embolden this under the guise of economic empowerment of women? If women’s
economic empowerment is the central goal of this suggestion than it needs to be
recognized that it is every society’s responsibility to create livable wage employment
for all women and not doing so is the reason many women resort to prostitution
in the first place. Legalizing prostitution is a cheap and easy way to absolves
countries from taking any responsibility of educating women and creating jobs
for them.
After
all, why bother providing subsidized education and vocational training for poor
women, why bother strengthening employment equality laws for all women, why
bother leveling the pay gap between men and women in general when omen have
their ‘natural assets’ to follow back on? I believe we can do better then
legalizing prostitution to help economically empower women and in many ways we
have done so in the past. We need not aspire to follow in the footsteps of
western countries for when it comes to respecting and protecting women, they
lost their way a long time ago (some may even argue that these countries were
never on the right track to begin with).
2.)
I completely understand the desire to protect Indian women from being
exploited by foreign men but making it illegal only for foreign men to solicit
prostitutes has many problematic implications. First, this would imply that the
Indian female body (prostitute or not) is reserved only for Indian men (to
exploit or not). And second, this notion sends the message that the real threat
to Indian women is solely foreign men (the stranger danger rhetoric). Similar
arguments have been made when discussing sexual assault and sexual abuse
scaring women from strangers when the real threat is closer to home. Furthermore,
this law would be difficult to regulate and the only people who will lose money
are the poorer prostitutes since slightly more privileged call girls will
continue to have rich foreign clients. Also, how will we determine who is
considered a foreigner? Will NRIs, who have foreign $ and live outside of
India, be considered in this category? I foresee the strengthening of militant
nationhood through “protected womanhood” here and we know that this has taken a
dangerous turn in many parts of the world including India.
I
agree and understand that legalizing prostitution has many pros, including
those mentioned by others. However, rather than wasting energy and legislative
time to legitimize prostitution we should be creatively working to educate and
employ women in other fields. We know that exploitive measures can be curtailed
when alternative viable options are given to marginalized women. This has been
the argument from transgender activists who are working to end employment and
housing discrimination for transwomen so that they can find work other than
prostitution. There are better ways to empower all women and we will surely
find them when we stop wasting energy on things that ultimately divide us.
Thanks for reading, responding, and engaging.
Sandhya
Jain
Dear
friends
It
seems that Madhu Kishwar has now jumped on to the prostitution bandwagon - from
the failed Dialogue on Kashmir! Does this mean that these NGO types will now
move directly into the Brothel Business? Certainly there will be more money
here than in just distributing condoms. I do not know about 'Respect' though.
May you will all like to send your comments to Shekhar Gupta, Editor, Indian
Express.
Response
of Aalok Aima to Sandhya Jain
Dear
Sandhya Ji
You
obviously have not read the article by Madhu Kishwar otherwise you would not
have commented in the manner you have.
Madhu
Kishwar has written AGAINST legalising prostitution:" no self respecting
society can afford to "legalise" the dehumanisation of millions of
those who have been coerced into flesh trade through force, fraud, abduction or
violence."
"
While there is need to decriminalise this activity and free sex workers from
the terror and the extortionist grip of the police, to make it respectable and
socially acceptable would mean turning a blind eye to the dehumanising
circumstances through which the vast majority of children and women are trapped
into trading their bodies "
You
might have reservations about Madhu Kishwar's attempt at organising the
"Dialogue on Kashmir". That does not mean that everything she writes
has to be viewed with suspicion and worse still that her views should be
misrepresented/misquoted.
Best
regards
........
PS.
1. Above is not to be construed as either my agreement or my disagreement with
Madhu Kishwar's views on legalising prostitution.
PS.
2. Your language is shockingly intemperate.
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